I'm disillusioned because it never happens, but purveyors of conferences and books are happy to sell the promised land™ of how "it's really going to be different this time."
Processes, tools, and diligence vigilantly seem the most apparent path. Perhaps rehash the 50 year old debate of professionalization while AI vibes coding is barking at the door, because what could possibly go wrong with even less experience doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
It seems to be socially associated with the Handmade Hero and Jon Blow Jai crowd, which is not so much concerned that their software might be buggy as that it might be lame. They're more concerned about user experience and efficiency than they are about correctness.
> which is not so much concerned that their software might be buggy as that it might be lame
This is not at _all_ my interpretation of Casey and JBlow's views. How did you arrive at this conclusion?
> They're more concerned about user experience and efficiency than they are about correctness.
They're definitely very concerned about efficiency, but user experience? Are you referring to DevX? They definitely don't prize any kind of UX above correctness.
> This is not at _all_ my interpretation of Casey and JBlow's views.
Perhaps you should dig a little deeper concerning their views.
IMHO this group's canonical lament was expressed by Mike Acton in his "Data-Oriented Design and C++" talk, where he asks: "...Then why does it take Word 2 seconds to start up?!"[0]. See also Muratori's bug reports which seem similar[1].
I think it is important to note, as the parent comment alludes, that these performance problems are real problems, but they are usually not correctness problems (for the counterpoint, see certain real time systems). To listen to Blow, who is actually developing a new programming language, it seems his issue with C++ is mostly about how it slows down his development speed, that is -- C++ compilers aren't fast enough, not the "correctness" of his software [2].
Blow has framed these same performance problems as problems in software "quality", but this term seems share the same misunderstanding as "correctness". And therefore seems to me like another equivocation.
Software quality, to me, is dependent on the domain. As a Rust devotee, I know slower, GCed software is perhaps preferable for certain domains, where latency is less in important. Blow, et. al, never discuss this fact. Their argument is more like -- what if all programmers were like John Carmack and Michael Abrash? Instead of recognizing software is an economic activity and certain marginal performance gains are often left on the table, because most programmers can't be John Carmack and Michael Abrash.
Curious how they’ll balance the business needs of moving fast with AI vs quality because my agents aren’t that good. While it works, I’m often having to cleanup afterwards - slowing everything down. I was almost as fast when I had just basic intellisense.
Anyway, I’ll watch the twitch stream from across the pond.
In DJB's paper on software quality he identifies actionable strategies for code quality and code security that were born out of frustration to sendmail's exploit after exploit. Very accessible and fun read: https://cr.yp.to/qmail/qmailsec-20071101.pdf
I would expect this conf to expand on those types of concepts and strategies.
They probably just manage to realize that being seen to be "moving fast with AI" simply isn't a goal unto itself, that it has to deliver something of value beyond itself.
We could be in a tortoise vs. hare situation... Unless we find ourselves back in the conditions of the 2010's again, thoughtfully building software to be high quality and high performance may win out in the long run over "move fast and break things."
Always have been. It’s why the vast majority of disposable corporate garbageware, products chasing a buck, consumer shovelware, etc is built on the shoulders of thoughtfully designed, high quality, mature software that stands the test of time. No popular production software runs on an OS kernel someone vibe coded yesterday. Durable utility is where quality lies, as the cost of quality is able to amortize. Chasing trends is, by definition, costly.
Well, a couple years ago this stuff all sucked (well, a lot more). Yeah it's in many cases somewhat borderline now, but still - this is frickin magic compared to what I thought was possible just a little while ago.
My question is how far does it go - are the gains going to peter out, or does it keep going or even accelerate? Seems like one of the latter two thus far.
There are plenty of alternative software needs that do not need to be AI based nor do they need to change tactics due to the current obsession with AI.
Yeah it's interesting, unless I lean hard on them, AI coding agents will tend to solve problems with a lot of "hedging" by splitting into cases or duplicating code. It is totally fine with infinity special cases and unless you push for it, they will solve most problems with special cases and not generalise or consolidate (gemini, claude code at least both seem to have this behaviour).
I feel like this comes about because it's the optimal strategy for doing robust one-shot "point fixes", but it comes at the cost of long-term codebase heath.
I have noticed this bias towards lots of duplication eventually creates a kind of "ai code soup" that you can only really "fix" or keep working on with AI from that point out.
With the right guidance and hints you can get it to refactor and generalise - and it does it well - but the default style definitely trends to "slop" in my experience so far.
"I was almost as fast when I had just basic intellisense"
Get a grip.
You know as well as I do that you are simply marking and correcting your agent's work. I hope it works for you but why not be more rigorous in the first place when you do stuff?
For a non-engineer (business) person the case "engineering quality vs move fast break things" sounds more like "slow & expensive VS fast". The choice is obvious.
You should challenge this idea in your internal monologue. Learn a bit more about technology and how it's made. "Fast" in most cases most definitely does not equal cheap, especially over the long term.
It’s not that at all though, the adage “slow down to speed up” applies, because high quality engineering will inevitably increase throughput in the long run.
Seems like a waste of time to me, especially in this age of AI slop somehow passing as quality. Just another excuse to drink/network/party on company’s dime.
However, I would be interested in establishing a union for technologists across the nation. Drive quality from the bottom up, form local chapters, collectively bargain.
I'm disillusioned because it never happens, but purveyors of conferences and books are happy to sell the promised land™ of how "it's really going to be different this time."
Processes, tools, and diligence vigilantly seem the most apparent path. Perhaps rehash the 50 year old debate of professionalization while AI vibes coding is barking at the door, because what could possibly go wrong with even less experience doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
> A software conference that advocates for quality
I am going to keep saying this, if your main tagline/ethos is broken by your website you have failed.
* On mobile the topics are hidden without scroll over. You also can't read multiple of the topics without scrolling right as you read.
* The background is very distracting and disrupts readability.
* None of your speakers have links to their socials/what they are known for.
* > Who are the organizers? Sam, Sander and Charlie.
* * Ah yes, my favourite people.... At least hyperlink their socials.
I may be the only one who thought this, but this doesn't seem to be related to the fondly remembered Better Software Magazine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Software_Magazine
It seems to be socially associated with the Handmade Hero and Jon Blow Jai crowd, which is not so much concerned that their software might be buggy as that it might be lame. They're more concerned about user experience and efficiency than they are about correctness.
> which is not so much concerned that their software might be buggy as that it might be lame
This is not at _all_ my interpretation of Casey and JBlow's views. How did you arrive at this conclusion?
> They're more concerned about user experience and efficiency than they are about correctness.
They're definitely very concerned about efficiency, but user experience? Are you referring to DevX? They definitely don't prize any kind of UX above correctness.
> This is not at _all_ my interpretation of Casey and JBlow's views.
Perhaps you should dig a little deeper concerning their views.
IMHO this group's canonical lament was expressed by Mike Acton in his "Data-Oriented Design and C++" talk, where he asks: "...Then why does it take Word 2 seconds to start up?!"[0]. See also Muratori's bug reports which seem similar[1].
I think it is important to note, as the parent comment alludes, that these performance problems are real problems, but they are usually not correctness problems (for the counterpoint, see certain real time systems). To listen to Blow, who is actually developing a new programming language, it seems his issue with C++ is mostly about how it slows down his development speed, that is -- C++ compilers aren't fast enough, not the "correctness" of his software [2].
Blow has framed these same performance problems as problems in software "quality", but this term seems share the same misunderstanding as "correctness". And therefore seems to me like another equivocation.
Software quality, to me, is dependent on the domain. As a Rust devotee, I know slower, GCed software is perhaps preferable for certain domains, where latency is less in important. Blow, et. al, never discuss this fact. Their argument is more like -- what if all programmers were like John Carmack and Michael Abrash? Instead of recognizing software is an economic activity and certain marginal performance gains are often left on the table, because most programmers can't be John Carmack and Michael Abrash.
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX0ItVEVjHc [1]: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362 [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkdpLSXUXHY
By reading their blog posts and watching their videos.
You would think a conference that advocates for quality software would have a better website.
Curious how they’ll balance the business needs of moving fast with AI vs quality because my agents aren’t that good. While it works, I’m often having to cleanup afterwards - slowing everything down. I was almost as fast when I had just basic intellisense.
Anyway, I’ll watch the twitch stream from across the pond.
In DJB's paper on software quality he identifies actionable strategies for code quality and code security that were born out of frustration to sendmail's exploit after exploit. Very accessible and fun read: https://cr.yp.to/qmail/qmailsec-20071101.pdf
I would expect this conf to expand on those types of concepts and strategies.
They probably just manage to realize that being seen to be "moving fast with AI" simply isn't a goal unto itself, that it has to deliver something of value beyond itself.
Or at least "value" beyond that reaped by current investors unloading their shares onto "Greater Fool" buyers at high prices.
We could be in a tortoise vs. hare situation... Unless we find ourselves back in the conditions of the 2010's again, thoughtfully building software to be high quality and high performance may win out in the long run over "move fast and break things."
Always have been. It’s why the vast majority of disposable corporate garbageware, products chasing a buck, consumer shovelware, etc is built on the shoulders of thoughtfully designed, high quality, mature software that stands the test of time. No popular production software runs on an OS kernel someone vibe coded yesterday. Durable utility is where quality lies, as the cost of quality is able to amortize. Chasing trends is, by definition, costly.
>Curious how they’ll balance the business needs of moving fast with AI vs quality
Why would they need to do that? Is that even a goal or something that this conference is addressing at all?
Well, a couple years ago this stuff all sucked (well, a lot more). Yeah it's in many cases somewhat borderline now, but still - this is frickin magic compared to what I thought was possible just a little while ago.
My question is how far does it go - are the gains going to peter out, or does it keep going or even accelerate? Seems like one of the latter two thus far.
> Curious how they’ll balance the business needs of moving fast with AI vs quality because my agents aren’t that good
I would guess the same way humans do.
Put brain in creative mode, bang out something that works
Put brain in rules compliance mode and tidy everything up.
Then send for code review.
There are plenty of alternative software needs that do not need to be AI based nor do they need to change tactics due to the current obsession with AI.
Yeah it's interesting, unless I lean hard on them, AI coding agents will tend to solve problems with a lot of "hedging" by splitting into cases or duplicating code. It is totally fine with infinity special cases and unless you push for it, they will solve most problems with special cases and not generalise or consolidate (gemini, claude code at least both seem to have this behaviour).
I feel like this comes about because it's the optimal strategy for doing robust one-shot "point fixes", but it comes at the cost of long-term codebase heath.
I have noticed this bias towards lots of duplication eventually creates a kind of "ai code soup" that you can only really "fix" or keep working on with AI from that point out.
With the right guidance and hints you can get it to refactor and generalise - and it does it well - but the default style definitely trends to "slop" in my experience so far.
To be fair, a lot of humans also have this problem.
"I was almost as fast when I had just basic intellisense"
Get a grip.
You know as well as I do that you are simply marking and correcting your agent's work. I hope it works for you but why not be more rigorous in the first place when you do stuff?
Take a moment to reflect on what you have written and how the casual observer may interpret it.
For a non-engineer (business) person the case "engineering quality vs move fast break things" sounds more like "slow & expensive VS fast". The choice is obvious.
You should challenge this idea in your internal monologue. Learn a bit more about technology and how it's made. "Fast" in most cases most definitely does not equal cheap, especially over the long term.
It’s not that at all though, the adage “slow down to speed up” applies, because high quality engineering will inevitably increase throughput in the long run.
Really that’s the core of it
It's more like "slow and expensive vs. fast and more expensive"
Where can you actually learn the substance of what this conference is about?
All I found is a Twitch tagline that reads "Software is getting worse. We're here to make it better."
The have a list of the presentations in the original link. That should at least give you some idea what they're going to talk about.
The programming language in the background of this website appears to be Odin.
Bill Hall "Ginger Bill", the creator Odin, is a speaker on day 1.
If only they could get Jonathan Blow to be a speaker.
Looking forward to Casey Muratori's talk!
When I saw the title of the conference I immediately thought of him so I'm not surprised he's headlining!
the logo is an unsettling convolution of the back orifice logo
Now that you mention it, I'll never see the symbol of the Galactic Empire the same way again.
That's once again a really diverse panel of speakers... /s
Seems like a waste of time to me, especially in this age of AI slop somehow passing as quality. Just another excuse to drink/network/party on company’s dime.
However, I would be interested in establishing a union for technologists across the nation. Drive quality from the bottom up, form local chapters, collectively bargain.